Anyone who has ever learned about Christianity (when I say Christianity I am speaking for Judeo-Christian beliefs as a whole) knows that one MUST believe in God and only God to get into heaven, after all it is the first of the sacred 10 commandments. So this automatically restricts anyone who is not of the Christian faith. Doesn't matter how good willed you are, nor your character, nor how many people you have helped; none of that matters to the Big Man up stairs.
I will use my late Grandfather as a good example of the type of people you won't see in heaven.
My 'pa (as I will call him) was born in the late 1930's, a recovering time for America as we were just seeing the end of the Depression. He was raised a strict Catholic, but being the intelligent man that he was, later on came to understand that the Bible was very faulted and that God was an evil, human creation.
During his lifetime that spanned over six and a half decades he spent a lot of it working hard, just like most people born of the depression era. He was one of the kindest men alive, a very caring and loving 'pa. He spent countless years helping people rebuild houses, cars, furniture, all without asking for a single penny.
August 29, 2005: Hurricane Katrina makes landfall, as a Category 3 storm, on the southeast Louisiana coast and causes massive destruction.
Thousands of people were dead, left homeless, and had no money to go anywhere. A few months after this horrific event, my 'pa headed over to Louisiana to help rebuild houses for the Americans that had suffered the full effects of mother nature. He and a couple of old buddies worked hard in the southern heat and never once asked for repayment.
August 23, 2006: My grandfather suffered a massive stroke while working on a house in New Orleans, Louisiana. He was rushed to the local hospital where he was treated for his stroke. After two long nights, my 'pa was announced brain dead.
A wonderful man will forever be remembered in the hearts of many for all the things he did. I will never forget the legacy of my grandfather, and I hope you, as a reader, will remember this story and hold it close to your heart.
That man I just described to you is burning in hell for eternity, according to God. How will heaven be for you knowing that a human being; that helped restore the lives of many Americans whom he had never met, is burning in hell? While you, sit back and coast through life, maybe helping a few people out here and there not doing a damn thing to restore the hopeless life of a fellow human being; get access to heaven. You get eternal peace, and this loving man gets to rot in Hell. How do you feel about this?
Think about this man, according to God, just because he questioned his existence my grandpa is cursed with eternal damnation. All the good he had done all his life meant NOTHING to your horrid God. How evil must one be to deny peace at rest to someone like him?
My question to you, Do you honestly believe this is fair?
To everyone who reads this, don't be shy to post a comment and answer my question. It will most likely lead to a good, educated discussion. Also don't forget to subscribe via email and RSS.
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I can appreciate your sense of indignation with the appearance of God’s supposed “injustice”. Your 21st century social mores have been violated and you can’t bring yourself to understand how “good” works don’t save us from hell.
ReplyDeleteGood works are an important part of being a Christian. They are the outward manifestation of a Christian’s commitment to God.
Do only Christians do good things? Of course not. Your Grandfather was a prime example of a man with a kind and caring heart.
The Bible talks about “good works” sixteen times in the New Testament. They are most certainly necessary in a Christian’s life. But good works will not get a person to heaven.
You need to understand that we are incapable of totally understanding the mind of the Creator of the Universe. As such, concepts such as “Holiness” and “Righteousness”, are often lost on us, especially in a society that lives for “moral equivalence”. You may need to ask yourself this question, “how many ‘good works’ are enough?” Who decides this? You feel that your grandfather “deserves” a place in heaven because of his works. But where is the “criterion” for “good works = heaven” written? Would a fair and righteous God use this benchmark for determining salvation, but not tells us what is “enough” to make it? Of course not.
So in your world or equivalence, the Bible would need to say something like “One must do good works to get to heaven. It will necessary to build 100 houses for the poor, or to provide 500 meals for poor people, or to take care of 300 sick people until they are well, or…”
Can you see how absurd this would be? A God of absolutes is going to tell us EXACTLY how to achieve salvation; a place in heaven. And He did.
Jesus said “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” Wow, now that’s simple and it’s something EVERYONE can do.
Let me flip the coin on you. Let’s say God did publish a list of “things” we can do to get to heaven. Suppose I’m born with a disability that makes it impossible for me to do anything listed on the “things to do to get into heaven” list. Under your way of thinking, I’m doomed from the start. I can’t do “good works”. I’m not physically able.
But wait…I am capable of understanding the message of Salvation espoused by Jesus. I can accept Him. Even though I can’t do “good work”, God says He wants me anyway!!
I’m glad you’re not God. You would have condemned me to hell from the start, just because I can’t do any “good works”. You’re mean.
This is pure logic, my friend, and yours is flawed.
So instead of trying to be saved by some extent of “good works”, wouldn’t it just be easier for everyone to Accept Jesus’ Free Gift?? Of course it would.
Read this:
http://worshippingchristian.org/accept_jesus.html
Steve, Thank you for the well thought out response. I don't know if mine will be as articulated, but do not take that as a lack of care.
ReplyDeleteI really like how you explained everything which most people cannot do. Also, you went even further as to "Flip the coin" on me. I thank you my friend.
Now, if you will, I will start. First off I am not a believer of God, therefor this whole conundrum is hypothetical and I realize that you are an intelligent man, so you can understand this.
My biggest thing about God, is that he will not accept one for being a good person. Now we can get into the whole "what defines good" philosophical argument, but for the sake of answering to your response we'll save that one for later. I can see how "easy" it is to just have to believe for access to heaven, but this does not deny the fact that good men and women like my grandfather are rotting in hell according to God. Why couldn't he see the good?
If he is so omniscient he would be able to tell who was a "good" person in life. No body would have to worry about following a very out dated book, I wouldn't feel bad for have premarital sex, or killing witches (Exodus 22:18) for that matter.
My point is, I am not saying there is a point one has to get to, like a video game level of some type, where you have done x number of deeds and boom you get your ticket.
I am questioning why such an all knowing, all powerful God has such a screwed up instruction manual for life; why He cannot accept a man for be a good man of character, that anyone could look up to.
That is my questioning.
Thank you once again, I really appreciate the response and I will be checking out your website.
LDagnostic,
ReplyDeleteI'm a bit short on time at the moment, so I will probably need to follow this up with additional comments tomorrow.
One point that stuck out at me almost immediately was: "My point is, I am not saying there is a point one has to get to, like a video game level of some type, where you have done x number of deeds and boom you get your ticket."
Yet that is exactly the type of logic God uses. Let me explain.
God does not see gray. He sees black and white. To Him sin is or it isn't. If I knowingly took a pencil that didn't belong to me, that is stealing which is a sin. If I commit murder, that is also a sin. In our moralistic eyes, they don't even come close to comparing to each other, but to God, both acts are enough to send us to hell. There is no gray area. Everything is either right or wrong.
If you will allow me some indulgence here, and please, I mean absolutely no disrespect to your grandfather, but did he ever lie? Did he ever gaze at pretty women and undress them with his eyes (have lust)? Did he ever "borrow" anything and not give it back?
I'm pretty sure he did some or all of these things at some point in his life, like all of us have.
So, based on the moral equivalence mantra, God should be keeping track of these things (which He does, by the way) and stacking them against the good things your grandfather did, which were really big "good things", as I think all of us can agree.
Now come judgment time. Based again on moral equivalence, God will assign "values" to the good and the bad. A rebuilt house is worth, say 100,000 points. "Stealing" a pencil is worth, let's say -1 point. Lying is worth -10 points for "little white lies" and -50 for bigger lies, while real "whoppers" are -100 points.
Can you say with certainty that Grandfather would have ended in positive numbers by the end? Of course you can't. You don't know how many times, over the many years of his life that he lied, had lustful thoughts or stole something. Remember, all of us are in the same boat. The Bible says ALL have fallen short. All means All, including the most honest, most good person you know. Logically, we know this is true, if we are willing to admit it.
The bottom line for me is this:
God gave us freedom of choice, the ability to make choices about how we are going to act; the freedom to choose not to sin. But we blew it almost as soon as we got started.
God has given us a second chance, a chance to be with Him in heaven forever after we die. It's so darn easy too!! All we have to do is believe that Jesus is who He said He was; the son of God, or God incarnate in human form, if you will, who came to earth, was the only "person" to ever live sinless the whole time. He then sacrificed Himself and took all of our sins on Himself, thus removing them from us. But in order for our sins to become His, we have to BELIEVE He is who He said HE is. We have give our hearts and souls to Him. It's not hard once one decided to do it.
Thank you for this open forum and I apologize for making this so long.
-Steve
Steve, you say that accepting Jesus is something that 'everyone can do.' This is an incredibly flawed statement for numerous reasons, and the few I can think of include:
ReplyDelete1) Babies/children killed before having any real understanding, or even hearing about Jesus.
2) People from other, isolated cultures who have no ability to become a Christian, or who may never hear about Christianity during their entire lives.
3) People born before Christ.
All of these people, according to the Bible, are now rotting in hell. This includes paragons of their time, like the mentioned grandfather. They never had a chance in god's eyes, and he would know since he's supposedly omnipotent.
I believe any religion with that kind of hell is a religion that can hardly be described as 'loving' or the god as 'forgiving'.
My apologies for using the "everyone", a generalization without detail.
ReplyDeleteSince you bring it up, let me address your three groups of people who do not fall into that category. The Bible does not specifically address these groups, but I believe there is more than enough evidence to support my position
Babies, children and the mentally ill who are not able to understand and make a conscious decision will go to heaven.
King David lost the child he conceived in adultery. After the child died, he declared in 2 Samuel 12:23, “Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me”. King David knows he will see this child again some day.
In regards to those who are raised in societies that do not have or may not allow the teachings of Jesus and while some may be ignorant of the content of Scripture and the teachings of Christ, they are by no means deprived of any knowledge of what is right and wrong, nor are they deprived of the knowledge of God’s existence. Romans 1:20 tells us “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.” In reality, it is not that some people have not heard about Christ. Rather, the problem is that they have rejected what they have heard and what is readily seen in nature. Deuteronomy 4:29 proclaims, “But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.” This verse teaches an important principle: everyone who truly seeks after Truth will find it. If a person sincerely desires to know the true God, God will make Himself known.
We find out what happens to people born before Christ in Luke 16:19-31. We have the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Lazarus died believing from Old Testament studies that a redeemer was coming to save them from their sins. People who believed in a redeemer went to a place the Jews called Abraham’s bosom or Paradise. It was a place of comfort. Unbelievers went to a place of torment, like the rich man. Both were in the “abode of the dead” called Sheol in Hebrew and Hades in the Greek. While in sight of each other there was a giant chasm that separated them so no one could cross from one side to the other. When Jesus died He went to Paradise (Luke 23:43) and when He rose He brought the faithful to Heaven with Him (Matt. 27:54-55) Since that time all who die in faith go straight into the presence of the Lord. The unsaved dead remain in torment till the end of the Millennium when they’re brought back to life for their final judgment.(Rev. 20:11-15). The rich man begged Abraham to send Lazarus back to warn his brothers about what was waiting for them. Abraham said no. They had the Word of God before them, the prophets were preaching it, yet they were rejecting it. That was their choice.
God does know all things, but He gives us the freedom to love Him and accept Him, or not.
Again, in fear of offending you, but meaning no offense to your grandfather or you, your grandfather was given the message of salvation through Jesus, but rejected it, or so you suspect. No one truly know what is in the heart, but God. If your grandfather ever accepted Jesus, and truly meant it at that time, even though he may say he rejects Jesus now, Jesus says “And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand” (John 10:28). In other words, a person might become so angry with God that they claim to reject Him completely. But if that person has ever believed in Jesus, truly and honestly, Jesus has them and will never let them go.
Now you have heard His message. I hope and pray that you will not reject it.
Steve,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your time here, I realize how dedicated you are to the subject matter. Thank you for being so kind on the sensitive subject of my Grandfather, but understand I will not take offense to your statements, thank you for the for warnings though.
Let me address your earlier response: You mention "God gave us freedom of choice". I would love to understand how this works if God is omniscient.
First off for Him to be omniscient He must know how our lives will be "lived": as far as day to day choices and decisions, when we come to the proverbial "fork in the road"; He knows, before we choose, if we will go left or right.
I have always heard "we have free will to make choices" yet if God is omniscient we cannot have free will.
Technically he already knows the choices we will make. He does not draw the beginning of the "maze" of life then draw the end, and let us find our way there. He knows what path we will take, how many left turns we will take, right turns, how many steps; everything due to His omniscient spirit.
Now, from my life understandings, we are not His robots, but we do not have free will.
An omniscient God giving his creations free will is a self negating statement.
Here is a great quote on that, by a Greek philosopher, Epicurus (341BC - 270BC)
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
-Epicurus
I'm pleased that you won't be offended by my answers. I'm going to hold you to that statement though! :-)
ReplyDeleteLet's start by looking at the definition of "omniscient". It is defined as "having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight, possessed of universal or complete knowledge".
How does this in any way contradict "fee will"? So God already knows what choices you will make. OK...I'm confused why this knowledge would remove our ability to make our own choices. He is not making the choices for us, but He does know what choices we will make and where they will lead, ahead of time.
Is it your contention that because He knows of our mistakes, but doesn't stop them, He is somehow not allowing our free will? I guess I'm being dense today. Sorry about that. Please try to explain your point again and I'll try to get it in my head this time.
As for Epicurus, interesting postulate, but it shows a complete misunderstanding of the nature of God.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?"
God can control all things, but God is not fake. He gave the beings of His creation free will. They chose to disobey His directions and do evil. God can prevent evil but doesn't. He does this for good reason. If God did prevent evil, He would be like a bad parent who enables a wayward child’s destructive behavior. There would be no consequences for one’s actions, and as a result no one would learn integrity, purity, honor, responsibility, or self-control. There would be no “good consequences” for right behavior, no “bad consequences” for wrong behavior. What would people become except more deviant and sinful? This is basic parenting 101.
I contend, that to a certain respect, God is willing to prevent evil. The question we must ask ourselves is "did we ever ask?" Now let me temper that a bit. If we only go to God when we have problems or request and the rest of the time we want nothing to do with Him, how sincere are we? Remember that we can't hide anything from God; He knows our inner most emotions, passions, reasoning and motivation. I short, we can't lie to God.
Let's say I have refused to have anything to do with God for most of my life. Now, all of sudden, I am something. I pray to God that He will give it to me. Did He hear my prayer? Of course He did. Will He do what I ask? Maybe. How would we feel of someone we loved with all our heart denied us for most of their life, but then when they needed something, that's when they showed up? Most of us would be pretty put out.
I'm not saying God is put out, although He may be. :-) What I am saying is we want God to be all "fair" and giving with us, yet we are not willing to do the same with Him. By the way, the "we" in that statement encompasses everyone, Christians, myself included.
Here are some solid facts:
God is righteous and holy. We are not because of our self inflicted sin.
In order to be allowed into God's presence, ie Heaven, we must be made righteous and holy.
We cannot do that ourselves.
Jesus did this for us by coming to earth as one of us, yet living just like He did in heaven; completely sinless, then dying as a sacrifice to God for us.
That allows Jesus to take all the sin, from every one of us, onto Himself. Since He is innocent, those sins are now negated. By believing in Him, the only requirement He demands, our sins become His, are negated, and we are restored as sinless creatures, as far as God is concerned.
I hope all of this made sense. Thanks for the opportunity to continue this dialog.
Steve, explain to me how it's fair that a non-christian man of a different faith, who lived a good life helping others, is going to hell simply because he isn't Christian?
ReplyDeleteSure, he would have heard of your Religion and of Jesus, but if, say, a Muslim man were to attempt to convert you, would you change your religion? Of course not. So ask yourself, how is this fair?
Of course, looking at the Adam and Eve story, I've come to the conclusion that your God isn't fair at all.
So in your opinion, it's your sense of "fairness" that is being assailed.
ReplyDeleteI'll answer your question with a question.
Was it fair for man to fail to obey God's rule? There was only one (don't eat from that tree) and we couldn't even do that right. There's that "choice" thing again.
Was it fair to ask the Creator of the Universe to come down from Heaven, in the form of a man, and be brutalized and killed for a crime He wasn't guilty of, all for the purpose of erasing our bad choices? It had to be done. We had "chosen" to separate ourselves from God through our disobedience. Now God had to fix it for us.
Once again, I'll fall back on my point system argument and ask "has anyone ever been "good"? Maybe by our wishy-washy, "things are based on however we 'feel' on a particular day" mentality, someone has actually been "good". But this is a measurement in relative terms. He/she is "good" as compared to "X". God does not deal in relative, He deals in absolutes. One thing about absolutes, one always knows where we stand.
It seems to me, through our discussion here, that one central theme resonates throughout your comments. You seem to honestly believe that God is somehow obligated to be satisfied to sit back and let us do whatever we want and then when we die accept us anyway. I know people who are parents who are harsher than that (in context...they don't do the "after we die" thing of course, but they do set impossibly high standards)
The bottom line is this: we have to live by rules, if we like it or not. These rules are set by God, again if we like it or not. We accept His rules or we don't; the free choice thing again. If we elect not to accept God's rules, we have been told exactly what to expect from Him. He has given us an option, a fairly easy option, in my opinion. We choose to either accept that option or not. It's really that straight forward.
By the way, Muslims know who Jesus is. They are taught that He is a prophet, subservient to Mohammad, but they do not believe He is the Son of God. Mohammad said (paraphrased), "say not that Jesus is the son of God".
So anyway, where your example of Islam is concerned, it doesn't hold water. Any Muslim wishing to know more about Jesus can do so. Yes, he/she risk ostentation or death for doing so, but none the less, they know of Jesus; now it's up to them to figure out if they have it right or not.
Thanks again for the open forum.
Hey Steve,
ReplyDeleteSorry for the absence lately, but let's start right up.
I would like to address:
"but He does know what choices we will make and where they will lead, ahead of time."
I believe you were talking about my disagreement with God giving us free will. This statement alone shows that there is no "free will", yes WE may think we are deciding our own paths, but He already knows where we going. Any god knows what choices we will make and where they will lead, ahead of time, negates any free will.
Let me try using a rough analogy:
I (will be the god here) have an ant (ants are my creations) farm. I know where every ant will be at every interval of time up until death at which I know how they die. They walk around doing ant stuff, I know ant A will be at position x and ant B at position z, and so forth.
Do these ants have free will? I'm sure they think they do, but I know what choices they will make ahead of time. In other words everything they do is determined by fate. They cannot escape it.
The same goes with the Judeo-Christian God and if what is written about Him in the Bibke is true, then we too are controlled by fate. We do not have free will in this situation.
And I'm sorry about being unclear the first time :-).
I honestly feel that if a god is all powerful, he should just make everything good. Why put his creations through this physical life if there is going to be an afterlife? Why test his creatures? Does He (JD-CHRSTN God) not love us all? He knows whats happening on Earth why allow it.
Since God created evil, it is meaningless.
Hey guys, any criminal who confessed their capital crimes and says that they believe in the power of the state, let's release them.
Oh, look, they're killing people again.
But lookie over here, Aunt Jamima works for curing cancer patients and has never seriously hurt anybody, she doesn't agree with the state.
Let's lock her up, boys!
Does this seems fair?
Once again Steve, I thank you for coming here.
Please visit often. You are welcomed.
I just spent an hour typing up a response and blogger just lost the whole thing.
ReplyDeleteLet me see if I can find some time to do it again.
That's pretty horrible.
ReplyDeleteIt's really horrible. The words really flowed for me, which was cool, since normally I'm not the least bit eloquent. Anyway, this contains the gist of what I want to try to say.
ReplyDeleteFree Will is defined as "voluntary choice or decision (I do this of my own free will)" or "freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention".
Intervention or to intervene has several definitions, but the one most appropriate to our topic is "to come in or between by way of hindrance or modification (intervene to stop a fight)" or "to interfere with the outcome or course especially of a condition or process (as to prevent harm or improve functioning)"
Again, I believe your logic is flawed. The definition of free will doesn't say anything about a prior knowledge of events removing any choice making abilities. God's knowledge of events does not mean He will intervene in them.
Your ant farm analogy is also not accurate. I can see the ants. I can tract all of their movements 24/7. As a matter of fact, I know where ant "A" will be going at every minute of his/her life. But unless I take over control of the ant, it is still operating on it's own free will. My knowledge of it's movements are irrelevant. I must take over control of it to subjugate it's free will.
You see, the only way for God to circumvent free will, would be to make us autonomic to his will. He could make us love Him, but it would be a false love, and nothing about God is false.
You said, "I honestly feel that if a god is all powerful, he should just make everything good. Why put his creations through this physical life if there is going to be an afterlife? Why test his creatures? Does He (JD-CHRSTN God) not love us all? He knows whats happening on Earth why allow it."
Physical life is given to us to allow us the opportunity to accept God, once again, through free will. He will show Himself to us and then we have the decision as to whether we will accept Him and His love for us, or reject Him. If we reject Him, we have been advised of the consequences of that choice. Again, God is not false. He will intervene if we ask Him and it's His will to do so.
You said, "...Aunt Jamima works for curing cancer patients and has never seriously hurt anybody..." So you are admitting that Aunt Jamina has, at some point in her life, abet not seriously, has hurt someone? Welcome to sin. The Bible says "ALL have fallen short of the glory of God". All means All. You, me and even our caring Aunt Jamina.
Sin is black and white, zero or one, on or off, true or false. It is Boolean. There is no gray or middle ground. It is not relative, it is absolute.
You keep going on about God being "fair". God gave us choices in the garden, we chose to do the wrong thing. He gave us laws to obey, we couldn't do that either. He gave us His Son, Jesus, as the ultimate solution. All we have to do is believe in Him to accept His FREE gift of salvation, and so many of us can't even do that right!! Why is that so hard?
God has been more than fair with us. Isn't it time we start being fair with Him?
Not quite as eloquent as my lost response.
Thanks and God Bless you, my friend.
Steve, your response was very "eloquent", like I previously stated, I'm sorry I have not responded in such time. I'm pretty busy serving our country.
ReplyDeleteOn the "Free will" argument, I truly have no more to say. In your eyes it makes sense and in mine it does not. I will honorably agree to disagree with you on this one.
On your second topic, about my questions as to why God allows bad things.
Let me start with a question with which I am sure you have heard before from "my kind of people" :).. How can an infant, a child who has taken their first breath, only a mere seconds old, be a sinner?
Is that not what the Bible says? (Please let me know if I am wrong about that)
That all humans, young and old are sinners?
Because Eve ate the forbidden fruit, not me. God knew she would eat it so why would He create her? That act alone is pure evil.
For instance let us say we have 10 puppies. Maybe 8 weeks old, knowledgeable enough to know how to eat, not just mindlessly drinking its mother's milk. They are in a backyard full of puppy toys and treats, similar to a puppy Garden of Eden. Now they have snacks and they know from human intervention what is good or bad. So along with the good snacks I through in a bowl of radiator fluid. (Notoriously poisonous to dogs, and for some reason they love the taste) We train the pupps not to drink the fluid and they know it is bad yet one of them drinks it and dies.
Who is wrong for that? I would be evil to do such a thing. So why would God temp humans into sin? I know your going to say God didn't because in fact the devil tempted humans not God, but did He not allow the forbidden fruit to be there? Just as I allowed the radiator fluid to be at access to the puppies. I did not tempt them to drink it, but allowed it to be there.
Good talking to you again, Friend.
I'll be waiting for a response.
And if you don't mind (I know this is a personal question) What do you consider yourself?
eg. Evangelist, 7th day adventist, Baptist.
Hi LDagnostic,
ReplyDeleteI don't have time to talk much today, so I'll wait to address your latest entry, but to answer your question, I am officially a Southern Baptist. But with that said, I'm not afraid to walk to my own beat, if you will. In a nutshell, I am a Bible believing, evangelical, Christian Zionist. Whew...I hate labels!! :-)
More soon. Take care, My Friend.
Haha, that's what I like to hear, good hearing from you.
ReplyDeleteI hate blogger. It did it again. An hour worth of work, gone in one click. Unbelievable. I'll try it again if I can find time this afternoon.
ReplyDeleteGod Bless and have a great holiday in case I don't get back before next week.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteOK, let's try this again.
ReplyDeleteDon't disregard my "free will" argument yet. I'd ask that you consider it, logically, some more. I believe that you may yet be able to logically draw the same conclusion I did.
I found an article on "GotQuestions?" that really peaked my interest on the topic we have been discussing here. In light of my lost verbiage, I would like to repost a section of it here for your consideration.
Question: "Why does God allow evil?"
Answer: The Bible describes God as holy (Isaiah 6:3), righteous (Psalm 7:11), just (Deuteronomy 32:4), and sovereign (Daniel 4:17-25). These attributes tell us the following about God: (1) God is capable of preventing evil, and (2) God desires to rid the universe of evil. So, if both of these are true, why does God allow evil? If God has the power to prevent evil, and desires to prevent evil, why does He not prevent evil? Perhaps a good way to look at this issue would be to consider some alternative situations for how people might have God run the world:
1) God could change everyone’s personality so that they cannot sin. This would also mean that we would not have a free will. We would not be able to choose right or wrong because we would be “programmed” to only do right. Had God chosen to do this, there would be no meaningful relationships between Him and His creation.
Instead, God made Adam and Eve innocent but with the ability to choose good or evil. In doing so, they could respond to His love and trust Him or choose to do their own thing. They chose to do their own thing. Because we live in a real world where we can choose our actions but not their consequences, their sin affected those who came after them (us). Similarly, our decisions to sin have an impact on us, and those around us.
2) Another choice would have God compensating for people’s evil actions through supernatural intervention 100% of the time. For instance, if a drunk driver causes an automobile accident, God would have to keep him and the people in the other automobile from getting harmed, for there would be many people who could possibly be caused to suffer from the accident or the death / injury of those involved in the accident. God would have to keep the drunk driver from crashing into power lines, buildings, etc. because these things would cause innocent people to suffer.
In such a world, God would be like a bad parent who enables a wayward child’s destructive behavior. There would be no consequences for one’s actions, and as a result no one would learn integrity, purity, honor, responsibility, or self-control. There would be no “good consequences” for right behavior, no “bad consequences” for wrong behavior. What would people become except more deviant and sinful?
3) Another choice would be for God to judge and remove those who choose to commit evil acts. The problem with this possibility is that there would be no one left, for God would have to remove us all. We all sin and commit evil acts (Romans 3:23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8). While some people are more evil than others, where would God draw the line? Ultimately, all evil causes harm to others.
You may read the complete article here.
I normally do my own work, but I wanted to put that out there.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI'm not throwing it out, but I realize the only closure will be to agree to disagree, if you are okay with that.
ReplyDeleteFirst,
"1) God could change everyone’s personality..."
He could rid the world of evil and give us free will if He is almighty correct? I do not see why not. Even if we didn't have free will, I'd much rather live on Earth as a robotic society with peace. And the whole Adam and Eve stuff is even worse. Why was it up to one person to screw the rest of the world up? FOREVER?! God knew that Eve would eat from the forbidden tree, it's like the dog and antifreeze situation I explained earlier. He knew it would happen, He should be accountable for it, not humans.
Second,
"2) Another choice would have God compensating..."
I like how in this situation we can compare humans to God, yet when a skeptic asks a believer something about God, and cannot answer, they say "well we can't understand God because He's God" what a lame excuse. And if He had completely rid the world of evil, there would not be drunk drivers and bad things etc. etc. So the second point has been successfully ruled out by the first point.
Third,
"3) Another choice would be for God..."
Once again this point has been ruled out by the first.
Lastly, I read the article, it is well written yet misleading to the blind follower. The kind of stuff I hate to see because 99% of the readers would not have the mental capacity to see its falsity, with which it is filled.
Thank you Steve, hope to hear from you soon.
Good day.
Hi. I found this site through my Twitter feed and thought I'd jump in here. Good discussion, BTW.
ReplyDeleteOn the topic of free will, God knows all and creates all. He knows full well every choice you're going to make. Before you were born, he knew everything you would do and where you would end up.
My analogy is that of a computer programmer. If I program a computer virus with a specific mission, ie, destroy a hard drive, then I can't be upset when I place that virus on a computer and it does what it's been designed to do.
In my understanding, that's what happened in the Garden of Eden. God wrote the program, knew exactly what the program would do, and then became angry that the program functioned as created.
God planned all of this from the beginning knowing exactly how it would all play out; you, me, the President, Hitler, war -- everything was planned and known by this creator. In my mind, we have the illusion of free will when in reality, we're like software that's been programmed to run a certain course.
Secondly: I think Steve mentioned that god doesn't view sin in shades of gray. If you murder someone or steal a pencil, it's all the same to him and is worthy of punishment in hell.
Well, the Catholics say otherwise. Their doctrine says there are mortal sins and venial sins; mortal sins send you to hell, venial sins do not, and they have plenty of scripture to back their beliefs up much in the same way that Steve has.
Also, you must avail yourself of the sacraments to get into heaven, especially the Eucharist. And again, they have plenty of scripture to justify their position.
In fact, the Catholics say that Steve's church is wrong, but that's getting a bit off topic, but I just wanted to illustrate that there are so many different Christian beliefs about god -- all using the same scriptures too -- that it's impossible to know the 'truth' whatever that might be. And we're not even touching on Islam or other faiths.
Great discussion, though.
Welcome to the discussion DT, and great post.
ReplyDeleteThank you for stopping by.
Thanks. I wrote up something a bit longer over at my site since I do have a tendency to ramble on.
ReplyDeleteNo problem, I'm a rambler myself haha.. what is you site? Feel free to post it here in a comment.
ReplyDeletewww.doubtingtimmy.com
ReplyDeleteI'm coming into this late, having just found it after Doubting Timmy asked people to review his response, so I'd like to address a few of the topics here.
ReplyDelete1) Steve, your initial rebuttal has a small logical problem. It wasn't said that good deeds should be the sole criteria, only tthat it should count for something. Your flip of the coin depends on there being only a single way to gain heaven. If there are multiple options based on the abilities and conditions of a persons life, then doing certain good would get a person who could into heaven, and some alternate act would provide a pathway for those who could not. In fact, an omnipotent creator that decides the very nature of his creations should understand the limitations thereof and adjust the path to heaven accordingly. To not do so is either lazy or malicious.
2)God does not see grey. Sounds like a flaw to me. It is one thing to say that stealing a pencil is wrong; it is another to say it's the same as raping children. An inability on god's part to do that seriously curtails maximal greatness.
3)Your moral mathematics don't add up. You have to include values for every time where someone could have lied, stolen,commited an minor transgression but did not. This likely offsets all the times they did.
4)Free will: see my blog http://recreant-defendinghumanity.blogspot.com for this
5)Re: Solid facts. Please don't put up dogma and claim it's fact.
6)Was it fair that Jesus had to die for our sins. No, but then again he didn't have to. God could have accomplished the result without the blood sacrifice. If it was unfair, god has only himself to blame for that.
7)LDagnostic, your ant farm analogy is flawed as Steve suggested. The flaw, however, works in Steve's favor and not yours. With the ant farm, you have only limited the ant's choices. You can determine within a set selection what the ant will choose. God, on the other hand, knows perfectly what the ant's course will be. The ant may believe it has a choice, but the outcome of choice is decided before the ant even gets to it.
8)God as an enabler: Could god not choose to remove the suffering inflicted on innocent victims and yet still provide some type of negative reinforcement to the offending party?
I know it seem as though I'm picking on you Steve, but you've serious problems with your arguments. This isn't your fault, the whole concept of heaven & hell seem destined to failure.
My father died of cancer when I was 13. On my 14th birthday, he was buried.
ReplyDeleteHe was a wonderful man. He was a Christian man that lived what he believed in a manner that I have not seen of many people calling themselves Christians. He died in a cruel, painful manner that no one deserves. This was a real eye opener for teenager.
When I started asking questions of the religious leaders he respected and that I was raised to respect from birth, I got the standard line. God works in mysterious ways. My personal favorite was that we as humans were simply unable to understand god's grand plan for us and that we must keep faith with him as he knew best. I tried to follow this advice and found I had two paths before me and I had to decide which to take.
The first path was to accept god's mysterious plan and my ignorance of my own well being and carry on, avoiding logical thinking. The second path was to ask the hard questions and based on the answers to those, make a rational and informed choice to accept or reject the faith I was raised in.
I asked the questions and I did the thinking. It was not something that happened overnight and was a 10 year process. At the end of my journey this is what I was comfortable in believing.
There is no such thing as god or heaven or hell. If these things existed, would I really want to think highly of an entity that had the power to prevent so much pain and suffering and did not use it? My father and others I loved had died and that was it. Their lives were over and we all would not meet again in paradise no matter how good I was or how deeply devout I became. There was no hell and sometimes people do not get what they deserve. There is very little justice in our world. Good people get sick and die when the world would have been better off for having them in it a little longer. Some bad people live to be 90. People get sick and they die and that is not by the will of a higher power, it is due to the imperfections of the physical body that can not heal itself from all illness.
I wouldn't worry too much about heaven and hell and where your grandfather went. Just like my father, he died and all that is left of him are the memories he left behind in the people that loved him. I have no idea why this prospect is so scary for so many. You are born, you live, you die and instead of worrying about the next life that there is absolutely no reason to believe exists, concentrate on the life you have and making the most of it. It seems our dead loved ones did that in their lives. All that is left of them is us. We should keep them alive in thought and sharing the stories of them with others. I think your grandfather would be proud of you if he was able to see this. My father would probably not agree with me but respect me for using my own mind. May they both rest in peace within us.
http://aftersomethought.blogspot.com
Anonymous, thank you for that post. Wow, it was good. I hope that everyone will read this, in fact I am going to post this on my blog to make it easier. Thank you again.
ReplyDeleteRecreant, you say my "moral mathematics don't add up". Really?
ReplyDeleteI commute to work, as do millions of others.
Say that I never violate the speed limit, cross yellow or double white mines, never run a yellow light, use my vehicle lights when I'm supposed to and obey all traffic laws.
Based on your logic, I should expect a representative of the DOT show up at work and give a cash reward and a box of chocolates for obeying the law.
I really can't see that happening, since the barest minimum expectation of civilized society is obedience to the law. Your logic is flawed.
One centralized theme running through this blog, by the author and most of the commentators, is a liberal "entitlement" mentality. The author even went as far to admit that he would be willing to give up all free will (freedom) if he could want for nothing. I completely disagree with that premise. To me nothing is more important or sacred than freedom. Our country offers it (or used to anyway) and God offers it.
I appreciate the opportunity to come on this site and be allowed to voice my opinions. I do pray for each and every one of you in that you will realize there is more to the world than what you currently believe. I hope with all my heart that you realize the truth before it is too late.
Thanks and God Bless.